Internal Drive Install Help! - Macintosh Garden

This page is a wiki. Please login or create an account to begin editing.

17 posts / 0 new

Last post

2011, November 28 - 7:52am

Macnut9765

Offline

Joined: 2011 Nov 24

Posts:

Internal Drive Install Help!

Anyone have any experience with these adapters? http://www.cablestog...d=109&sku=17246

I dug out a couple Ultra3 SCSI drives I have had for some time. I'm trying to get them going in a in a beige PPC 8100 and it seems no matter what I do it's just not seeing the drive. The LED on the drive lights up I can hear it spin up but I get no indication from the Mac that it sees it there. I have no other hard drive in the machine, just booting from Yes a 3.5" floppy with 7.6 on it. Since it's not an apple drive I wasn't shocked that the apple hd disc utility didn't see it but SuperSpot scans the bus for any devices but it sees nothing there. It's either the format utility or it's the adapter I'm using exactly like the one in the link above. I did have the ID set to 0 and 1 again with no results. The adapter has several jumper setting on it but I've had it a long time and the directions have long since been gone. Other than the SCSI ID I would rather not experiment with jumper settings and fry out something. The jumper options are as follows

LED (Which I assume is for a disc activity light?)
SYN (Stands for Sync?)
DLY (Delay start?)
MTP (No clue)
ID3
ID2
ID1
ID0

The last thought I have is that the disc is just too big for the ol Mac to see it? It's 36.4 gig.
I also have a few G4's and one has the SCSI card inside. If I need to use that to get it formatted I can. It does have OS9.2.2 and OSX 10.3, I can boot from whichever I may need to get the job done. I'm not big on experimenting on the G4's as I have had them since new and I don't like to risk killing them.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Comments

2011, November 28 - 9:28am

SwedeBear

Offline

Joined: 2009 Apr 18

Posts:

I think the link is chopped up in your text. In the 1st I´d go for a higher SCSI ID, ie ID3, out of the un-safe zone so to speak. IIRC ID0 is the Mac itself, ID1 *usually* is a HDD but *could* also be a bootable CD-ROM or such, but I stand corrected as my memory fades and the machines are heavy to get up from the cellar.

2011, November 28 - 10:06am

MikeTomTom

Online

Joined: 2009 Dec 7

Posts:

@MacNut9765: The link you supplied was pasted in broken. It won't work as is.

Ultra3. Is that "Wide-SCSI" (68 pin or 80 pin)? Not sure but I think they need to be run from an additional controller card (PCI?).

ID settings for a primary drive is usually ID 0

Typically a Mac with on-board SCSI would have as factory default:

ID 0 = Primary HD
ID 3 = Internal CD
ID 7 = Reserved for the Macintosh Bus
ID's 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6 were free for external and additional internal devices.

However it is important for the end of the SCSI Chain (internal & external) to be terminated. The internal HD if its at the end of the chain should, as well as be set to ID 0, have termination in the form of resistors or dip-switches on the HD. Sometimes if the HD has been used as a secondary drive, the resistors may be missing (dip switches don't go missing tho' but if present will need to be set to on).

Some further reading on SCSI fun & games for you:
The Essential Mac
Apple Support: Connecting SCSI drives to your Mac
Pickle's HD FAQ
Seagate: Installing SCSI Drives on Macs.

2011, November 28 - 2:10pm

24bit

Offline

Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Posts:

Was the 36GB a Mac drive formerly and are you sure the drive was good back then?
A non Mac drive may have some weird old file system that could cause trouble too.
I would try on different host adapters and exchange cables and terminators.
(SCSI buses were picky on cables, adapters and terminators.)

If you choose a unused ID, e.g. 4, the device should at least be seen on the bus by SCSI Probe or similar.
I dont think you can easily fry something on your G4 if you are only tinkering with power off.
BTW: If you have the chance to try it on a Linux host, Gnome Partition Editor would be my choice for formatting.

As you got 4 jumpers, the adapter will likely configure 16 IDs. Of course only the lower 8 are seen by your 8100´s SCSI chip. The jumpers usually count binary with values added, resulting to 1-2-4-8 as closed.

2011, November 28 - 5:31pm

bertyboy

Offline

Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Posts:

DLY, is Delay Start, found on many SCSI drives, it delays the spin up for a period of time after receiving power. There was usually a choice of a number with delay, indicating a multiple of (usually) 12 seconds, so delay could go from 0, 12, 24, up to 120 seconds.
Thinking behind this is that if you have a bank of 700 hard disks, you don't want them all spinning up at the same time - it'd be like the sci-fi films where someone drains all the power and blacks out the state - so you spin up a handful, then 12 seconds later, more spin up, then 12 seconds after that, more, etc, etc.

2011, November 28 - 6:03pm

Macnut9765

Offline

Joined: 2011 Nov 24

Posts:

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=109&sku=17246
Sorry, not sure why the link didn't paste right the first time. If the link still don't work I take a couple snapshots and throw them on photobucket instead.
Yeah the drive is most likely formatted PC format of some sort. I figured it would still show up on the bus as a device. I seem to remember when using PC formatted floppy's in the day, soon as you put them in you'd get the initialization dialog box. Kinda figured a hard disc wouldn't have been any different. The drive itself has no adjustments on it like jumpers or dip switches at all being an Ultra3 it merely has the connector only. All the jumpers are on the adapter and listed as I typed them above.
The only devices that are in the computer are the floppy drive, the cd drive and this hard drive. I also tried this on the Quadra 800 I have with the same result.

To answer your question 24bit, both of these drives were never used and when they spin up they are fairly quiet but make all the normal noises, nothing scary or unusual. Plus there is a green LED built on to the surface of the circuit board of the drive that lights right up as soon as I power up the Mac's. The thing I was worried about on the G4 is those "Unknown" jumper settings I listed if I were to try them I wouldn't want to fry anything. ex DLY, MTP and SYN. I have no idea what those are for and they weren't jumpered on the adapter initially. As far as Linux, that is all Greek to me. I never messed with it at all.
On the G4, I'll make sure the SCSI card has it's drivers loaded and see if SCSI Probe will help but I'm not sure that's OSX compatible but I can always use it on OS9. I'll also try a different terminator.
I may just have to face the fact that Ultra3 just may not work in these older machines without the proper expansion card. I sincerely doubt anyone made a Nubus Ultra3 SCSI card and if they did....finding one would be a massive undertaking. Although 36GB would be sweet to have, I may just has to find the old 50 pin narrow SCSI drive somewhere.

2011, November 29 - 5:09am

(Reply to #6) #7

MikeTomTom

Online

Joined: 2009 Dec 7

Posts:

@MacNut9765:

I may just have to face the fact that Ultra3 just may not work in these older machines without the proper expansion card. I sincerely doubt anyone made a Nubus Ultra3 SCSI card and if they did....finding one would be a massive undertaking. Although 36GB would be sweet to have, I may just has to find the old 50 pin narrow SCSI drive somewhere.

That would be my guess, too. I think PCI adaptors were the 1st instance of Wide SCSI3 cards, I 1st heard of them as being an optional extra for beige G3's. Adaptec perhaps? They seem to have the highest prominence.

It would be nice to access that 36GBs tho'. Have you tried FWB HD Tookit to see if it can see the drive? Pic on link page shows FWB looking at a nice 46 GB SCSI drive.

2011, November 29 - 5:33am

Macnut9765

Offline

Joined: 2011 Nov 24

Posts:

MikeTomTom
It would be nice to access that 36GBs tho'. Have you tried FWB HD Tookit to see if it can see the drive? Pic on link page shows FWB looking at a nice 46 GB SCSI drive.

What the heck, I'll give it a try. The worst that could happen is nothing. I still have a couple tricks up my sleeve I'm gonna pull out. I'm not licked yet! Besides, I'm a stay at home dad and when the kids are asleep I have nothing better to do.

2011, November 29 - 1:48pm

24bit

Offline

Joined: 2010 Nov 19

Posts:

I´m confident you´ll get the SCA beast running somehow, there would be little sense in makeing or selling SCA to 50 pin adapters otherwise.
This site describes things better than I ever could:
http://www.obsolyte.com/faq/
As mentioned in your other post, I would give all possible SCSI utilities a try.

2011, November 30 - 3:58am

#10

Macnut9765

Offline

Joined: 2011 Nov 24

Posts:

Update:
I actually got it to work! However there is a downfall, I'll get to that after I explain how I got it to work. First, I took the drives and hooked them to the Adaptec SCSI card in the G4. They didn't show up on the desktop but I used the FWB tools and it just showed it as a Fujitsu MAN3367MC - 5065-7805 which is what the part and model numbers are, only it's branded HP. Nonetheless, I had to format it as a Mac drive. Once it was finished, it showed right up on the desktop.

I pulled it out of the G4 and tried it in the 8100. Since the 8100 is on an early OS8 it didn't see it. I was baffled at this point so then I remembered the 2gig barrier with pre 8.6 systems. I then put it back in the G4 and partitioned the 36gig down to 17 partitions all just under 2 gig as ridiculous as it sounds. I put it back in the 8100 and there popped all 17 partitions on the desktop LOL

At that point I was feeling adventurous so I decided to try sticking it in my llcx just for kicks. Again, all 17 discs were splattered all over the right side of the desktop. Since it worked in that I also did the Quadra 800 and it of course worked in that too. Not to shabby to have an ultra 3 in a 1988 computer that it was completely not designed to work in. The upside is I could put every OS from 6.0.8 thru OSX and use it to boot any Mac I have by swapping it around. Plus I have the second identical drive I formatted in Mac format already that's gonna make a nice backup disc.

I'm not thinking that I could make this in bigger partitions so the downfall is with all this disc space on the old computers I have to look at 17 different disc icons cluttering up the desktop. The only way I can see to fix that desktop issue is to work on a way to get HDMI on these old machines and use my 55" TV for the monitor LOL That would give me more than enough desktop space. Another project for another day. The second downfall for this setup is on a G4 or above you CANNOT use SCSI as a boot disc says Adaptec because you have to mount them after you get to the desktop. Again, another thing to try some other day.

Bottom line, now that this is done I am happy that I accomplished it just for the sake of doing so. However, I am going to still pick up some lesser sized 50 pin narrow SCSI drives. I may have found a source.

Thank you all for your input and assistance in helping me get this done.

2011, November 30 - 4:16am

#11

MikeTomTom

Online

Joined: 2009 Dec 7

Posts:

I think you may find that you can have much larger partition sizes from Mac OS 7.5 onwards. See the last pic in the list of pics on the FWB link for some size variations and how to see them in FWB.

Congrats on getting it up and running too.

2011, November 30 - 5:41am

#12

bertyboy

Offline

Joined: 2009 Jun 14

Posts:

Well done in getting it working.
I'm sure it's an HFS (not HFS+) limit, and that the limit is probably 4GB or 8GB. I certainly had a 3.2GB SCSI Quantum Fireball in my IIci as a 100M partition for System 6.0.8 and all the rest as one partition for System 7.1 (System 7.5 was just too slow).

2011, November 30 - 7:00am

#13

Macnut9765

Offline

Joined: 2011 Nov 24

Posts:

After doing some research Wikipedia says that the 2gig limit was on system 6 but it didn't say which version of 6. I thought I had a bigger drive back in those days eventually but it's been so long ago I can't remember. I'll play around with it more and see what I can get to work. I have to go look through the apps library on here and see what utilities are laying around for 6.0.8, 7 & 8 so I can play with each OS and see what the limitations are. I have to limit my play time with it a bit more, I get caught up in this stuff then wifey gets a bit on the nasty side because I'm getting lost in my office for hours and staying up until a million o'clock. LOL

2011, November 30 - 8:15pm

#14

soudesune

Offline

Joined: 2009 Dec 19

Posts:

My understanding of HFS is that it has 65K blocks to allocate and after 2GB, the blocks become very big.
System 6 is also a 24-bit OS. This is the reason why it can only address 8MB RAM. If there is a 2GB volume limit, this may also be reason why.

2011, November 30 - 8:17pm

#15

soudesune

Offline

Joined: 2009 Dec 19

Posts:

@MacNut: you are one step ahead of me. I tried formatting my 72GB drive last night. HDT wanted 26 hours to initialise the drive with one volume greater than 2GB. So I chose the 2GB option and I ended up with 36x 2GB volumes on my desktop.

2011, November 30 - 8:31pm

#16

Macnut9765

Offline

Joined: 2011 Nov 24

Posts:

I found the amount of drives amusing myself. I think for me it was more the fact of getting working rather than how silly the end result was. It's fun to beat the odds when they are against you even though it's not really useful. LOL

2011, December 1 - 9:35pm

#17

soudesune

Offline

Joined: 2009 Dec 19

Posts:

I just think it now all so bizarre. A sysadmin in my university told me once that they had allocated 2GB for the students' and lecturers' files and the like. This was in the early nineties. Students were given a supposed 2MB limit. I uploaded a CD filled with fonts. It took up 25% of this disk space and no-one noticed (or the nice sysadmin was looking after me). Ah greed. I seriously contemplated copying them onto 500 floppies. Zips hadn't come out yet and CD-Rs cost as much as computers.

Now, with the same machinery, I have more HD-capacity than was probably in the whole university and more RAM than high-specced machines had HDs. And a 1600x1200 screen!

Now I hope that all of the games that find will make up for the thrill of buying, assembing, looking for answers as to why 25-year old machines don't work (aside from the obvious) and the eventual rush of getting it all working.