Got a LC III today and have lots of questions...

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2010, April 10 - 1:35pm

Bolkonskij

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Got a LC III today and have lots of questions...

Hi everyone,

when my friend came up with the news I was really suprised. What happened? He somehow got his hands on a Mac LC III that someone dumped and since he has no use for it, but knows that I love tinkering around with old homecomputers, he will get it for me.

That is really special because I grew up with a Mac LC III that my best friend had and we spent hours and hours in front of that cool thing using Claris and playing lots of cool games. So, really, I'm excited about this reunion one and half decade later.

I got it just a few minutes ago and have to admit I'm still baffled by the cool design and the few space that it consumes on my desk.
I also got a monitor, seems to be an original Apple monitor. It just reads "Macintosh Power Display" on the back. The power cord was missing but luckily it's a standard power cord and I have a few left.

Also got a HP 550C DeskWriter printer, again without cables (people, what are you doing with those? Collecting? ). I suppose it will be hard to get the printer <-> Mac cable from somewhere today...

I also noticed both the ADB mouse and keyboard are in okay shape, but again we have a missing cable. (the connection ADB (?) cable between keyboard & Mac)

So I plugged everything in (mouse directly connected to the LC III) and put on the Mac. Guess what, I loved to hear that "beep" again - it has been so many years. And it seems it to work fine, I could hear the 80 MB harddisk working. (Oh my god, I will NEVER run out of hard drive space. How could one possibly gather that much information. )

It would then go to the booting screen but I could see the monitor is obviously in the process of dying. Poor old fellow. I've taken a photo of him, I suppose he's gone, right? (http://yfrog.com/i3dyingmonitorccj)

Anyway, it worked enough to let me check the installed System 7.1. Obviously the pre-owner did not delete his installation and has all his personal stuff there. (I just jumped through the folders and saw several files that appeared to be business letters written in Word 5.1). It's a shame people don't pay any more attention to this fact. Lucky for him / her I'll delete it later.

Oh and I was really suprised to see the LC III already has been maxed out to 36 MB RAM, which is of course great news. Also some games are on the hard disk (Diamonds, a Space Invaders clone etc.)

But the mentioned problems remain. Does anyone have

- any ideas on the monitor? (alternatives?)
- any ideas on where to get the missing ADB cable?
- any idea on where to get the missing printer <-> LC cable?

As always, thanks a lot for your help.

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2010, April 10 - 2:23pm

Zaiphaic

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Instead of an ADB cable you can use a S-Video cable - same pinout: 4pin Mini DIN.

2010, April 10 - 2:46pm

bertyboy

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What a great find, it's the first of the pizza box LC's to come with a meaty processor. Always thought the LC and LCII were slightly underpowered, but the LC III gets it just right. And 36MB of RAM too. If it was bought at around the purchase time of the LC III, it would have cost as much as a new car - I bought 64MB for my IIci - ouch !!

Tricky issues to resolve. And I can't see any easy and free options.
The monitor - there was a Mac Video <-> VGA adapter around at the time. I had one with my IIci and IIsi. You plugged it into the back of the Mac and it could take a VGA cable. I don't know where you get them now, they may come up in a big box of Mac bits on eBay or similar.
The keyboard - it's an ADB cable, I have one for my SE, but you may get one again on eBay in a big box of bits. I seem to remember a few ADB-USB adapters at the time of the iMac in 1998. To allow people to use their old ADB devices on newer USB Macs. Devices like joysticks and trackballs, etc. But I reckon that these would be even harder to find than the otiginal cables.
The last cable, for the printer, is a LocalTalk cable. Again, box of bits is most likely source. I have one or two, but I use for connecting my SE to my Mac Pro network.

Good advice is to know what you're looking for. ie. Apple Monitor, ADB cable and LocalTalk cable, and be able to recognise them from their end connectors (ADB has the ADB logo on it, like that on the end of th mouse connector, LocalTalk has the two arrows at the end of the cable (Mac Serial cable has just one arrow).

Best advice may be to keep your eyes open for another old Mac on an eBay type site. Pick it up for a few dollars, keep the cables you need, and sell it again for the same money you paid for it.

2010, April 10 - 2:50pm

Harrymatic

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It is possible to make an adaptor cable that allows you to use a standard VGA monitor with older Macs - there's a guide on this page : http://home.pacific.net.hk/~johnb/mtv.html

2010, April 10 - 3:10pm

IIGS_User

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I would love the IIe card

2010, April 10 - 6:26pm

bertyboy

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As if by magic, someone is seling an ADB cable on eBay UK, £4 + £1 P+P.

2010, April 10 - 7:21pm

Bolkonskij

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Thanks for the helpful answers, guys. I've been poking around with the LC III the whole afternoon (while uploading the Police Quest discs to megaupload). I had hopes that those color lines may disappear after some time. After all, this fine computer spent the last 10 years in the attic. And I realized that when I switch it on, it will display a normal picture for about 1-2 seconds before these "rainbow lines" come back. Anyway, they stayed were they are, which is annoying of course. Luckily I was able to track down a person offering these adapters. They seem to be really pricy as bertyboy indicated though... (another 20-25 bucks)

As for the ADB cable, I've found a company here in Germany offering those for about 12 euro including shipping (roughly 16 US-Dollars) . I also found an auction for a new ADB keyboard including ADB cable for 17 euros with the seller living almost next door. So I suppose I got the keyboard problem fixed

Thanks for the link to the guide Harrymatic - but honestly I don't feel like building this cable. I'd rather cut back my expenses on coffee-to-go and buy it off ebay.

One question about the online capabilities - some kinds folks in another forums mentioned that I could put an Ethernet Card into the LC III and thus bring it online. Any ideas on how difficult these cards are to locate? They probably use the NuBus port? Since those weren't the days of plug & play, I assume I'd better only buy a card with the drivers on disk?

@IIGS_User The IIe card is indeed very interesting, but how is it hooked up ? The ever popular NuBus port? Also I have read that especially older 16-Bit versions (inteded for the LC & LC II) tend to slow down the whole system... anyone has any personal experience to share on how severe the loss of performance is?

2010, April 11 - 3:19am

IIGS_User

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I never owned an LC or the IIe Card myself, but Wikipedia lists the Color Classic also compatible with, not only the LC series of Macintosh computers. The IIe Card is connected to the Mac using the PDS slot.

2010, April 11 - 3:41am

MikeTomTom

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For the missing ADB cables I have on several occasions used S-Video cables as a substitute. They seem to be compatable - Both ADB and S-Video cables use the 4 pin mini-DIN plugs, they are also inexpensive to purchase see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN

As for the Ethernet, a card taking up that valuable slot may be a waste when it could be used for example, by a video card for a higher resolution display. Look on eBay for a SCSI to ethernet solution instead. One I use is called an "Asante EN/SC" and it is perfect for any 68k Mac up to a 68030 CPU such as the LC III - it offers a choice of AUI, BNC and RJ-45 (TP) connections on the one box plus SCSI in and out. Drivers are still available for this at Asante http://www.asante.com/support/legacy/Bridges/EN_SC.asp and you can see some good pix of this box here: http://geektechnique.org/projects/asante.html This box doesn't work on '040 and newer Macs.

Good luck with your LC III restoration.

2010, April 11 - 9:24am

#10

themacmeister

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You could try a hardware degausser for the monitor (it looks like magnetic interference has damaged it). It *may* have a degauss button on the back, but they were rare back in the day. I passed up an LCIII (with matching monitor) as it had been stripped of RAM, and hard drive, both of which would be difficult and expensive to replace. I used to use a PC monitor with adaptor (6xdip switches?), and it would do a set vertical refresh fine. Mac only screen sizes (832x624 etc.) are not supported on PC monitors (correct me if I am wrong).

If you are incredibly brave, you can crack open the monitor (usually after 7 days unplugged), and there are 3 adjustment screws inside - BE EXCESSIVELY CAREFUL NOT TO GO NEAR THE END OF THE CRT, OR THE EARTH PLUG ON THE SIDE OF THE CRT - this can be HARMFUL OR FATAL.

I have reincarnated 3 monitors this way, and to be honest, they were clearer, and sharper than when new

2010, April 11 - 11:39am

#11

Bolkonskij

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With all these bad news at least one good news of today - I've been lucky to find a 3,5" disk at home and put it into the disk drive. The LC III read it correctly (though it was formatted way back under DOS) and I was even able to format it as a Mac 1,44 MB disk. Also eject works fine as supposed. Hurra

As for the S-Video cable, I don't have one at home either. Too bad, really. Still no way to use the keyboard.

Oh and thanks Mike Garden for that info on the SCSI Ethernet solution. I didn't know about that, this is cool. I found a "Asante FriendlyNet Adapter für Apple, RJ45 und BNC" on ebay - will this get the job done?

My problem sort of is that I want to hook it up to the internet and add an external CD-ROM drive. With only one SCSI Port on the backside of the machine and the PDS slot my options are limited, I suppose. Since the CD-ROM drive will use the SCSI port I'll only have that internal PDS port left. Bummer.

If I can somewhere dig up a Apple SCSI CD-ROM drive will it work without drivers?

2010, April 11 - 1:33pm

(Reply to #11) #12

MikeTomTom

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Yes the Asante SCSI to Ethernet solution is very good - especially for very early Macs. Plus as it has SCSI in and out, which means that you can add other external SCSI devices to it, such as an external CD drive/burner for example.

As for what you saw on ebay *No*. What you have found on ebay is for PCMCIA slots only (laptops mainly) or possibly for a tranciever option (which indicates the ethernet must already be available on the Mac motherboard for it to work).

Asante has many ethernet products/solutions but you need to be looking for a _SCSI_ solution only - that is, Ethernet via your Macs SCSI port and for the model that I mentioned or at least for the models that Asante had drivers for on that page I'd linked to for Asante driver downloads in my previous post.

It is possible that these Asante SCSI boxes may be as rare to find as your LC III... so patience may be in order for you here..

2010, April 11 - 3:33pm

#13

bertyboy

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Or go with a LocalTalk to Ethernet adapter - like that I still use for my SE. There were a few choices, the top of the range was the Farallon iPrint Adapter - sold to allow new (Ethernet / USB) Macs to print to old LocalTalk printers, but I now use mine as a simple AppleTalk bridge from PhoneNet to Ethernet.
It's slow (230kbps), but that's acceptable on today's broadband throughput.And I don't see you transferring that many multi-gigabyte files to / from the LC III.
These come up on eBay every few weeks, brand new they were between £40 and £100, so don't offer too much - remember you can buy a fully working G3 with Ethernet / VGA / USB for a few dollars.

2010, April 11 - 4:02pm

#14

Bolkonskij

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Once again, thank you guys for the all the input. I am really a bit lost on these good old 68k machines and your postings have been very helpful. Good news is that today I bought a VGA adapter for the Mac which will hopefully solve the monitor problem soon. Now let's find an old VGA monitor that can display low resolutions.

I'll also keep an eye out for the Asante SCSI to Ethernet solution, unfortunately none are offered on ebay Germany right now. Same goes for the Localtalk to Ethernet Adapter… do you remember the actual name of it, bertyboy? I'm looking for a good keyword for the ebay search

Also - any ideas on the external CD-ROM drive? I know Apple offered these but I assume back in the days the clones (Umax, power computing etc.) were popular and I imagine they also offered external drives. Any information on that?

2010, April 11 - 7:59pm

#15

bertyboy

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Mine was the Farallon iPrint Adapter. Farallon made most of the Mac networking stuff like that. I'd have to go digging through my old Mac magazines from 1998 / 1999 to find the alternatives. It's a powered device, so something that comes with an AC adapter for your local power supply would be best.

The external CD-ROMs would have just the Apple External CD-ROM, which connected by SCSI. Or the "Apple CD300" or "CD300e" or "CD300e Plus" for the later model, which was 2x and also SCSI. I saw one of them come up on eBay UK a week or so ago. I must have ranted about this before, it's the one I waited just over 6 months for, from order date with Apple (through a Premium reseller) to it actually arriving.

There's a CD300e Plus for sale in the UK just now. Shipping may be the deal-breaker. See it here. Also watch out for missing parts, ie. the original CD-ROM and the CD300e (the one I had, not the one for sale) required a CD caddy for the CDs - a separate grey tray with a clear plastic flip lid. Not sure if the CD300e Plus for sale needs it.
But of course you could purchase any reasonably priced external SCSI CD-ROM drive, ie. Toshiba, LaCie, Yamaha, Phillips, etc, from that era and get something many times faster for a fraction of an Apple cranded one.

2010, April 12 - 4:00pm

#16

IIGS_User

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the original CD-ROM and the CD300e required a CD caddy for the CDs - a separate grey tray with a clear plastic flip lid. Not sure if the CD300e Plus for sale needs it.

This one seems not to need a grey tray. looks like a powered tray. A grey tray equipped AppleCD looks like disk drive of old Macintosh - a hole where you slip in the floppy disk or in a grey tray-driven AppleCD there is a hole where yo slip in the grey tray.

I remember this from the AppleCD 150 drive, the first AppleCD drive I owned.

2010, April 13 - 9:10pm

#17

amatecha

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Hey, I remember those Apple CD drives. I still have my original SCSI Apple CD300 from 1993 which my parents got as a christmas gift so we could play Myst! Still remember loading CDs into that stupid caddy, and being surprised at newer drives that were tray-loading and didn't need a caddy.

2010, April 14 - 4:42pm

#18

Bolkonskij

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Man, I have to admit - this LC III is giving me a headache. But on the other hand it's always exciting the closer you get to having this machine run as supposed

Since today I have to new additions to my periphals:

- One local talk cable (for communicating with the printer)
- A VGA adapter for connecting the LC III to a VGA monitor

The ADB keyboard cable is still missing though.

Unfortunately I only have a recently bought a small FlatTV with VGA port (advertised as PC compatible) and I don't know if it can display the required resolutions. Anyway, a simple try & error was unsuccessful, showing nothing else than a dark screen. Unfortunately the VGA adapter is not a simple adapter, but a DIP 10 adapter which offers roughly 43685 possible settings. Yes, I feel lost. Help. Anyone.

2010, April 14 - 6:23pm

#19

closeddoors1559

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I have the same adapter as you I think, and I've found this: http://www.brix.de/computer/_images/mac-vga-adapter_10-dip.gif

I hope it's useful. My configuration is either 2356 or 2367.

2010, April 17 - 6:22pm

#20

Bolkonskij

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Thank you closeddoors! I've been able to get it running, although not on the TV screen. Lucky me, my brother-in-law had an old 14" monitor left and I went there today to get it. So except for the keyboard my LC III works fine now. Step for Step we're getting closer Since there is not yet a way to get new files onto it, I spend some time browsing the current installation. There are a few games installed (though not playable without keyboard I assume) and I also found something that looked like the drivers for the HP printer.

Now I wonder: I intend to format the computer as soon as I get an external CD-ROM and reinstall OS 7.6 later on. But I fear that the printer drivers are hard to get nowadays - is there a way how I could save them off hard disk?

2010, April 18 - 1:32am

(Reply to #20) #21

MikeTomTom

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Save your printer drivers to Floppy Disk? I'm fairly sure they won't take up too much room.

There are Mac drivers for the 550c still available at HP:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareList?os=1006&lc=en&dlc=en&cc=...

2010, May 3 - 4:04pm

#22

Bolkonskij

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hey there, got a little problem here. Just got my external USB disk drive today and thus finally able to transfer data between my iMac G4 and my LC III. Unfortunately I have a little problem - I simply cannot put any files on the disk under OS X. It says that I have only reading rights. Now I know about the copy protection on the disc and I definitely put it on read & write, so I suppose it must be something OS related. (the LC III by the way can read & write the disk)

Anyone has any experience with using OS X and 3,5" disks?

(edit: Under OS 9.2.2 it works just fine, so must be a OS X related issue?)

2010, May 3 - 4:23pm

#23

IIGS_User

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An USB floppy drive can only read 1.44 MB floppies. This is the most annoying part for Mac users.

2010, May 4 - 6:44pm

#24

bertyboy

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An Assante LocalTalk to Ethernet adapter (with cables) came up on eBay UK today. Worth watching at least, and asking the seller about postage.
Get one f us to bid on it if he won't post abroad, if you want it.

2010, May 4 - 8:24pm

#25

soudesune

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Hi Bolkonskij,

I have been building up my mac collection recently and have lots of stuff. I certainly have an ADB cable if you'd like it. I have 5 ADB keyboards and mice behind me now as I speak. You can have one of those if you'd like too. I may also have an external CD-Burner for you too. I just have to check that the new one works first. Send me an email to kaw...@gmx.ch and we can organize postage.

I have to go look for some links for cards for that PDS-slot of yours. I remember seeing PDS ethernet cards and I'm sure that I've recently seen a video card as well.

soudesune

2010, May 5 - 5:05pm

#26

Bolkonskij

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@IIGS_User The floppy is a HD 1,44 MB floppy disk. Does anyone know if they discontinued support for writing on floppy disks with OS X? It almost seems like...

@bertyboy - Thanks a lot for the hint! That is great news - I'll immediately take a look on ebay UK. Hope it's not going up too high in price, spent some money on games and LC stuff lately and my budget is pretty much depleted. (yes, poor student..but the end is at sight)

@soudesune - thank you for your kind offer! But I've already found an ADB cable for the keyboard - I simply bought a used ADB keyboard off ebay for 1 euro and used that cable. Funny how a single cable is much more expensive then the complete keyboard... (and now I have a keyboard as a replacement in case of problems)
But regarding a CD ROM for my lovely LC III or hints on where to get expansion cards I'd be grateful...

2010, May 5 - 6:40pm

#27

soudesune

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Hi Bolkonskij, I'm off on holidays for the next 2 weeks and I'll be in touch with you then, should you still be in need.

2010, May 6 - 9:32am

#28

themacmeister

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OSX? Read only? Sounds like someone needs ntfs-3g and MacFuse

Might need 10.4.9 to use these, but may still run on 10.3.x?

Hmmm, cannot use HFS+ under OS <8.1

Why not try Fat16/32. Then you can write from both OS 7.5 (with Mac EasyOpen or PC Exchange, or whatever the hell they called it back then) and OSX (and Win98/XP/Vista/7). I transfer files from my WinXP machine to my G3 iBook all the time with USB Thumb drive. PS. You may need to mount Windows disks on boot (if that option is in PC Exchange), or else get SCSI-Probe 4.x. My ThumbDrive mounts (with the correct icon) in 9.2.2, but comes up with a strange syquest cartdidge message when you eject it (safe removal).

PS. Google is our friend...

2010, May 6 - 2:33pm

#29

Balrog

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OS X does support external USB floppy drives. But 10.6 has dropped HFS write support, so you'll need to use 10.5, or some other method.

There seems to be a workaround involving disk images. See http://68kmla.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11290 .

2010, May 7 - 4:18am

#30

themacmeister

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I like the USB thumbdrive Fat16/32 method. You can transfer 16GB at a time (or 32GB, if you want to blow a weeks spending money on a thumbdrive). It is USB 1.0 slow, but has been very reliable.

2010, May 8 - 10:57am

#31

Bolkonskij

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Does anyone of you know if this here will work with my LC III? It reads like it would, though the seller praises it for printers only.

http://de.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.de%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D230469422145%26ssPageName%3DSTRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Übersetzen

2010, May 8 - 1:19pm

#32

MikeTomTom

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In a word: No. This is *way* too new for an LCIII

_Tip_ enter "Asante talk" into a search engine. You will likely find that this is for (old) iMacs or any earlier Mac with already built-in ethernet. It is a bridge device, to connect to AppleTalk devices, mainly printers I would guess.

I'll spare you the searching: http://www.asante.com/products/CardsAdapters/AsanteTalk.asp

What you need to be looking for is a SCSI to Ethernet solution if you are wanting ethernet for your Mac LCIII. This has been mentioned before, in this topic.

If all fails for you. I do have in my possession an Asante EN/SC SCSI to ethernet box. I don't think at this point in time that I will ever have a Mac that I can use it with again. You are welcome to it for the cost of posting this to you. NB: I happen to live in Australia. This box consists of the box itself, plus a rather large (in size and weight) power supply plus a 25 pin at each end SCSI connecting cable. I think that this would come to near 1 kg all up.

2010, May 8 - 7:21pm

#33

Bolkonskij

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Thank you Mike Garden, I really appreciate your kind offer. But I fear shipping costs from Australia to central Europe would be enormous. I think I'll go with bertyboy's advice and get the one from the UK if there won't be too many bidders. Anyway, thank you very much!

(I thought I could possibly put this in between my LC III (via localtalk) and my router (via ethernet), that's why I asked about the above posted AsanteTalk)

2010, May 8 - 8:22pm

#34

bertyboy

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Mmm, I'd say it might work. But like me you may find that initiating the connection only works one way. I use a similar Farallon iPrint device - designed specifically for new Ethernet Macs printing to old LocalTalk printers. As I've pointed out before, it works connecting my Mac SE to my G4 and G5.

The UK one is a good bet anyway, the one you linked to looked a little expensive (29 euros) - the UK one is still only £5.50 - under 10 euros). Caveat is it comes with a 3 pin UK plug with integrated transformer, so you'd need some sort of 5 euro holiday adapter, but make sure the included plug (and transformer) handles the voltage in your country.

2010, May 9 - 9:02am

#35

themacmeister

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oops, sorry about the USB comment - that would not go well on the LCIII

BTW, will the iMac G4 run OS 9.2.2? I am pretty sure that would work (probably requires drivers).

2010, May 9 - 11:32am

(Reply to #33) #36

MikeTomTom

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>> If all fails for you. I do have in my possession an Asante EN/SC SCSI to ethernet box.
> I really appreciate your kind offer. But I fear shipping costs from Australia to central
> Europe would be enormous.

Hi. Like I said; "If all else fails" And yes I agree, getting one closer to home would be preferable.
As far as costs from this side of the planet go. You can find the postal rates here: http://auspost.com.au/apps/international-parcel.html - with prices in $AU. It looks like it would cost approx. 28 Euro for a registered airmail parcel (of up to 2 Kgs) to get to your neck of the woods. Unregistered airmail is about 24 Euro and 14 Euro by surface (sea) - I imagine the latter would take weeks.

> (I thought I could possibly put this in between my LC III (via localtalk) and my router
> (via ethernet), that's why I asked about the above posted AsanteTalk)

See the specs via that link I gave previously or direct here: http://www.asante.com/downloads/productDocuments/ATALK_compguide.pdf
http://www.asante.com/downloads/guides/ATALK_IG.pdf

It is possible that it would be compatible. But you would also need a terminated AppleTalk Adapter on the LCIII side.

I don't know if you have ever been familiar with AppleTalk adapters and networking via these devices (search for PhoneNet transceivers) they are slooooowwwwww. Sometimes it was faster to just swap floppies If you can hold out, wait until you can get a suitable ethernet/SCSI solution, the wait will be worth it.

Do you have any other Mac that is a beige G3 or earlier? If so you wouldn't need anything else to network your LCIII, only a serial cable between the two.

HTH.

2010, May 26 - 7:59pm

#37

soudesune

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Hi Bolkonskij, I'm back now. Are you still looking for a CD for your LCIII?

2010, May 27 - 8:11am

#38

Bolkonskij

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Welcome back, yes I do! Still no CD or Ethernet Adapter

2010, May 27 - 7:14pm

#39

soudesune

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Grand. I have an internal Yamaha 6416, an external HP CD-Writer 9200 or a simple internal Apple CD600 that I can offer you. Send me an e-mail and we can haggle over pricing and postage (you starting at 1 shekel, me at 2000 and we can close at 1700).

As for ethernet, you need an LC-PDS card and possibly a transceiver.
Here is one shop in the States selling them as clearance items for $2. Someone on the list might buy it for you and you can then send them something for their trouble:
http://www.datamemorysystems.com/Miscellaneous-Items/C_1117
You may also be able to get VRAM, SIMMs and other goodies at the Data Memory Systems site.

Lowendmac gives further upgrade options. A Sonnet Presto Plus might be worth your while:
http://lowendmac.com/lc/macintosh-lc-iii.html

There's always eBay, of course:
http://shop.ebay.ch/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=LC+PDS&_sac...
or
http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350089042342&ssPageNam...

I hope that that helps.